Freelance Copywriting: Robert Carnes' Journey to Small Business

[00:00:00] Sanjay Parekh: Welcome to The Side Hustle to Small Business Podcast, powered by Hiscox. I'm your host, Sanjay Parekh. Throughout my career, I've had side hustles, some of which have turned into real businesses, but first and foremost, I'm a serial technology entrepreneur. In the creator space, we hear plenty of advice on how to hustle harder and why you can sleep when you're dead.

[00:00:22] On this show, we ask new questions in hopes of getting new answers. Questions like, how can small businesses work smarter? How do you achieve balance between work and family? How can we redefine success in our businesses so that we don't burn out after year three? Every week I sit down with business founders at various stages of their side hustle to small business journey.

[00:00:43] These entrepreneurs are pushing the envelope while keeping their values. Keep listening for conversation, context, and camaraderie. Hi, and welcome to The Side Hustle, the Small Business podcast. Today we've got Robert Carnes with us, who's a author, marketer and freelance copywriter.

[00:01:06] Robert Carnes: That's right.

[00:01:06] Sanjay Parekh: Robert, welcome to the show.

[00:01:07] Robert Carnes: Thanks Sanjay, for having me. I'm excited to have a conversation about side hustle to small business.

[00:01:12] Sanjay Parekh: Exactly. So before we get into kind of the things that you do as side hustles, a lot of side hustles give us a little bit about your background and what got you to where you're today.

[00:01:21] Robert Carnes: Absolutely. So I started out with the University of Georgia, which I know you can love and appreciate. Graduate degree in journalism. So I thought I was gonna write for newspapers. That was gonna be my big kind of dream and maybe write some books on the side. I just, I've always known that I loved writing and that will obviously come up again as we have this conversation.

[00:01:38] But I graduated the height of the great recession, so there wasn't a ton of opportunities, especially in journalism. So I went into marketing, which is very kind of adjacent, and I've learned throughout the years. The benefits of having a degree in journalism have how that's benefited me in a career in marketing. Yeah. And especially as I get more into the writing side of things. But, so I started working for a lot of different nonprofits here in Atlanta. Those were kinda the opportunities that I can find at the time when I graduated. And I actually loved it. I mean, it was not somewhere I expected my career to go.

[00:02:09] Yeah. But because I worked for kinda smaller organizations that I was usually either the one marketing person or a marketing team of like two, I had to do a lot of the things I had to wear metaphorically, a lot of hats. Right. And so doing graphic design, web development, photography, pr, like all the different things that are even remotely connected to marketing.

[00:02:26] Sanjay Parekh: Yeah.

[00:02:27] Robert Carnes: Were things that I had to kind of learn on the job and just do them. And a lot of them are things I realized that I really loved and appreciated the talent to have. And other ones are like, okay, cool. I'm glad I did this. I'm glad I learned about it.

[00:02:38] Sanjay Parekh: Yeah.

[00:02:39] Robert Carnes: But I also would rather have somebody who likes this and appreciates this a lot more and has the training to do it better. Things like graphic design and web development. I'm like..

[00:02:46] Sanjay Parekh: Right.

[00:02:47] Robert Carnes: I can appreciate this. I can speak this language. But now that I work full-time at a marketing agency and have people as a part of that team who that is their full-time role. I'm so glad to let those people live in their talents and do those things. And so now I work at a marketing agency here in Atlanta called Green Mellon. I'm the marketing director, which really means I get to do the strategy for all of our clients. I also do some of our copywriting. I kinda do some of the account management side of things too, and kind of manage the relationships. With those marketing clients we have and make sure that all the things that we are doing are serving them well and serving their customer as well. And most of those businesses are small businesses. Most of the people that we're serving are small, maybe even medium sized businesses, but we're a small team as well, a team of nine that's mostly here in the Atlanta area. So small businesses kind of in my wheelhouse and my blood. Right. And it's where I love to live. Yeah.

[00:03:37] Sanjay Parekh: Yeah. So, okay, so you're working full-time in marketing journalism degree.

[00:03:41] Robert Carnes: Yes.

[00:03:42] Sanjay Parekh: But now you've decided to do some. Kind of side hustle things. Yes. So talk to us about that. Like what are the side hustles and why?

[00:03:48] Robert Carnes: Sure. So those kind of started pretty organically almost by accident when I was working in the nonprofit world. And I had more time before I was, became married and became a dad. I had more time to be able to give back that way, which is an important piece of a side hustle is making sure it's something sustainable.

[00:04:06] Something you can actually. Do and pull off. And so yeah, earlier my career I know I had the time, I had the interest. I, you know, wasn't making a ton of money, so I was like, it'd be nice to earn a little bit of another paycheck kinda on the side. And I also wanted to grow my skills. Yeah. I wasn't getting to do as much of the writing piece.

[00:04:22] It was the thing that I, again, I had started my career hoping to do, so I was like, okay, how can I put myself out there? How can I build my connections, build my skills? Let me just try this freelance thing for a little while. Yeah. Lemme see if I can become kind of a copywriter. I tried a couple different things, maybe doing some graphic design for some clients on the side. I did web development for a little while as kind of a side piece to learn that up. And then I landed on really, my skillset lent itself well to being a marketing copywriter, writing blog posts and case studies and white papers, and anything that a client needed to be able to kinda be researched and written and published online.

[00:04:55] It's like I can do that. I feel like I can help you out. And it gave me the flexibility to be able to serve a lot of new different clients. Many of them were in the nonprofit space. Most of them were still in Atlanta. But I, it again, built my connections more. I actually got a full-time job again, kind of midway through my career.

[00:05:10] One of those freelance gigs turned into a full-time job, which was awesome. I mean, it just showed the benefit of being able to kind of put myself back out there. And I think I really did grow a lot of those ways by learning a lot about kind of what the web needed in terms of writing. So. Again, it started almost by happenstance, but I'm really glad and I really appreciate those experiences and those connections I was able to make by becoming kind of a marketing copywriter, which I still do here and there. I don't have as much time as I'd like, and I'm doing a lot more now of what I want to do than I was earlier in my career. But I still, yeah, I still love the kind of the benefits that I get and it's also kind of a creative outlet as well. Yeah. To be able to do some stuff that I wouldn't normally get to do in my full-time job.

[00:05:52] Sanjay Parekh: Right. So, you know, one of the things a lot of people look at when they're thinking about doing side hustles is figuring out how to scale. Sure. The things that they do, what you're doing as a copywriter is a very time intensive thing. Yes. Have you thought about ways of how do you scale this? How do you make it more, and I know maybe the default answer is ai, but it maybe there's other answers, hopefully there's other answers beyond that.

[00:06:15] Robert Carnes: Sure. Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, I think by nature it's almost, it can be a good thing, maybe not to scale too big. Yeah. Because it does, I mean, when I'm doing it well, and when I am. Doing it the way that I want to, which is again, diving into something deeply, researching it well, making sure that the quality of what I'm putting together, how I'm treating my clients is at a high level.

[00:06:38] Like I, I don't want to outscale that too quickly, especially since in this capacity, I'm just a solopreneur. I'm the one doing it myself, right. I have to also be the one. Who's gotta find the clients Yeah. And bill the clients and make sure that they pay me and make sure that, you know I'm getting paid a fair amount for what I'm putting into this.

[00:06:54] So. Right. You know, scale is often the thing we talk about and focus on, but I try to make sure that I'm not doing that to the point where it's at my detriment. Right. Yeah. Or even to the detriment of my clients. I, AI is an interesting, another part of this conversation. And yeah, I mean, that could be the easy way because a lot of generative LLM models.

[00:07:13] Are text to text, right? They're, yeah I can do 10 more blog posts than I could before. I could do a bunch more case studies just by feeding in to chat GBT or Claude, a bunch of prompts. And I've definitely tested and toyed with the idea of how do I use these tools to upscale and upscale what I'm doing?

[00:07:33] But I don't know, for right now, I'm like I really like still being able to have the ability to be a human writer. And still have that one-on-one touch with clients. So I guess my point is I don't necessarily have a great answer for you. It's a harder thing to scale, especially if you like, I do prioritize quality and prioritize the relationships.

[00:07:53] Sanjay Parekh: Right.

[00:07:53] Robert Carnes: That come with part of this.

[00:07:54] So I'm sure some people are definitely doing the scale thing and definitely using AI to, to blow it out of the water. I'm more skeptical about that. Yeah. I'm trying to kinda slow walk this whole thing and take it a piece at a time.

[00:08:04] Sanjay Parekh: Well, what's interesting is one of the things you said is like, this is a creative outlet for you Yes. Of being able to do the things that you don't necessarily get to do for work.

[00:08:12] Robert Carnes: Exactly.

[00:08:12] Sanjay Parekh: So, you know, you know what's interesting about that is, you know, I could see why you wouldn't want to use these AI tools because the whole reason you said you did this was to have a creative outlet for yourself, for doing the things that you don't necessarily get to do at work.

[00:08:27] Robert Carnes: Absolutely.

[00:08:28] Sanjay Parekh: And so, you know, it's interesting to, to kind of think about that. Is there any, like other ways that you've thought about maybe using automation or tools or things like that, that have helped you out in terms of this process?

[00:08:41] Robert Carnes: I really, I mean, I think the thing, at least where I am in my career, and I think where AI is in its development is, I mean, a lot of those administrative tasks, making sure that I'm sending an invoice to my client the right way to make sure that I'm staying within scope, like almost being like a project manager for me.

[00:08:58] Yeah. That's where I hope that AI can kind of stay in its lane and let me do the creative pieces as you were talking about, like, I enjoy and do the writing part, right? That's the value that I bring. Being able to. Have a conversation with a client and then be able to have a good case study or something that comes outta that. Like that's where I bring value where I struggle in the things that I would love to hand off to ai, whichever tool it is and say, Hey, yeah, I'd love to, to be able to outsource the invoicing almost act as like a personal assistant. Like, and that's where I almost see it in, in the agency world as well.

[00:09:30] Like a lot of the things that like the deliverables we share with our clients websites. Graphics that we design, the code that our, you know, developer puts in for a website. Like those are the things, that's the reason you hire us as an agency is to be an expert in those areas. But yeah, a lot of the administrative things, the logistics the project management, some of those things, yeah, some of that stuff could be outsourced.

[00:09:50] It's hard to figure out the exact right way to do it and to stay. On top of it. And to also trust making sure that the, you know, hallucinations don't happen and then it's still, there's still a relationship there, right? Like, that's what we don't want to sacrifice, but Right. That's where I'm hoping and trying to play with getting AI and working that into my workflow.

[00:10:07] Sanjay Parekh: Yeah.

[00:10:08] Robert Carnes: But it's a process and I think we all see where AI is going and give it credit for its potential. But I'm like, but for right now, in 2025, how can we practically take advantage of this? And how can we really use it for our businesses and for our side hustles?

[00:10:23] Adam Walker : Support for this podcast comes from Hiscox committed to helping small businesses protect their dreams since 1901. Quotes and information on customized insurance for specific risks are available at Hiscox.com. Hiscox, business insurance experts.

[00:10:44] Sanjay Parekh: So let's talk about another thing that you do. Yes. You started writing books as well. I have, and it's, it is a very different customer approach, I think. Yeah. Compared to the freelance copywriting, right? Like, you've gotta go out and find the customer or client and do work for them.

[00:11:01] Whereas this, it's almost like you're doing like spec work, right? Like you're writing a book because you want to write a book and hoping that there is some audience out there, right? Yes. So. First of all, talk to us about what are the types of books that you're writing, like the themes? Is it fiction, non-fiction?

[00:11:17] What it is it and then why did you decide that? Sure. And how is it going?

[00:11:21] Robert Carnes: Yeah, that's a great question. I wonder myself how it's going sometimes. Yeah. So I've written I'm publishing my fourth book.

[00:11:30] Sanjay Parekh: Okay.

[00:11:30] Robert Carnes: In November, 2025. So it's my first fiction book. All the other ones to this point have been nonfiction, which has been fun. And it's. There's advantages and disadvantages to both, and you market different ways to different audiences. The first one that I self-published. In 2017 was a, like a Christian devotional about storytelling. Okay. And storytelling is kind of the undercurrent for all of what I do.

[00:11:53] It's the thing that I'm passionate about in work. It's the thing that I'm passionate about in the books that I write. And so I was working in kind of a Christian nonprofit at the time, so I was like, okay, what's the. The faith angle that I can take on storytelling. Got it. Three years ago I wrote a book called The Story Cycle that is kind of more business.

[00:12:09] It's taking that same idea of storytelling. How do we use principles of storytelling in our businesses to, to market ourselves, to tell our story, to connect with more customers and clients if it's very similar to StoryBrand by Donald Miller, which is another kind of big brand in that space. So yeah, it was just kind of what I was doing at the time. That's when I started at Green Mellon, working in a marketing agency. I was like, I want to sit down

[00:12:31] Sanjay Parekh: Yeah.

[00:12:31] Robert Carnes: And describe what we do and talk about the process and think about all the different ways that businesses could learn from this. And so I put it up into a book. I worked with a publisher for that one.

[00:12:40] It was like a hybrid publisher. We split the costs of production and everything. And so that was a unique opportunity, different from self-publishing. And then this new book, which again is a novel. It's fiction, which has been a whole, very different process to write and also now get ready for marketing, right? And I have a traditional publisher where we signed a contract and they're taking care of all the costs and design. And so that's been a cool process to learn and see again, especially to compare to the different processes I took for my books before, but it is still, it's called The Story Man.

[00:13:10] It's like a young adult fantasy novel where storytelling is the magic of the world. So I won't say any more than that, but it's kind of, yeah, it was a cool different kind of take on this same concept that I've been exploring and writing about for a long time. Yeah. And I don't know, like I also try to set reasonable expectations for myself because writing a book just in and of itself, like being able to publish it and put it out to the world, I think is a big accomplishment. That a lot of us don't get to do.

[00:13:35] Sanjay Parekh: Yeah.

[00:13:35] Robert Carnes: So I'm really thankful for that. I'm really just lucky to have the opportunity. So I, I try to gauge it more on that and the opportunities that it creates rather than just like the number of books that I've sold.

[00:13:46] Sanjay Parekh: Yeah.

[00:13:46] Robert Carnes: Because that's the thing, I tell all these prospective authors who I love having conversations with people like, yeah, I would love to write a book one day.

[00:13:51] Tell me about it. Like just as long as you're not expecting like New York Times bestseller out of the gate, don't expect to like get rich or famous off of this. But like, if you do it for the love of being able to like create something and put a book out there and just be able to have conversations with people about what that process was like.

[00:14:07] Sanjay Parekh: Yeah.

[00:14:07] Robert Carnes: Then it's well worthwhile and it's worth all the hours and hours Yeah. That you have to put into it to get to this point. because it has seriously taken years for each book to be able to kind of release it to the world. Yeah. But it's a fun process.

[00:14:19] Sanjay Parekh: How long does it take you to write one of these?

[00:14:22] Robert Carnes: I ironically, so the first one actually only took me about two months. Okay. To write, I mean, it was short. It was about 30,000 words, which that's another thing you'll learn if you ever write a book, it's in, it's more in words than it is pages. because everybody says, well, how many pages? I'm like, I don't know. What's the font size? How big is the book? Like, it's a different thing, so, right. I've learned. Mostly how much I do not know about publishing.

[00:14:42] Sanjay Parekh: Yeah.

[00:14:42] Robert Carnes: But I, yeah, I picked up some of those things. So it took, yeah, it only took me a couple months to write the first one, but it took me about a year to actually edit it and to get it into a place where I could actually be ready to publish it.

[00:14:53] The second one took me I don't know, about six months to be able to write it and put it together and pitch it to a publisher. Okay. This most recent one, the novel, and that's probably just because it's fiction and a little bit different. It took me about three years. To write it and revise again and again, and get those characters in the right places to get the plot polished and down.

[00:15:12] That's the, you don't really have characters in plots. It's, you know, you're not making things up when it's a right. Nonfiction book. A fiction is like a, it's a true blank page. You've got so many more things that could happen. So it took me, yeah, three or four years to get it to where it was ready to pitch to a publisher and contract.

[00:15:28] Sanjay Parekh: And did you work with somebody else along that way? Especially for the fiction book?

[00:15:32] Robert Carnes: Sure. I was, yeah. I was sharing with mostly family and friends. Okay. I'm in a writing group that I shared different versions with over the years and asked their opinions and advice.

[00:15:40] Sanjay Parekh: Right.

[00:15:41] Robert Carnes: So yeah that's another thing that I've very much learned is the kinda the journey to becoming an author is not. One person kind of closing themselves in a room with a typewriter and just cranking out a beautiful award-winning manuscript like you truly do.

[00:15:54] Sanjay Parekh: Unless you're Stephen King.

[00:15:55] Robert Carnes: Sure, yeah.

[00:15:55] Sanjay Parekh: Stephen King does that.

[00:15:56] Robert Carnes: But yes, he's everybody else. He's got the credibility to where he can do it every, we are not Stephen King. I love Stephen King, but I am not him. I have to get input and feedback and advice. Yeah. And perspectives from a lot of different people. And that's honestly what I've tried to do is like. Build up my acknowledgements page. Yeah. Because, you know, you, everybody who's not on the acknowledgements page never actually reads it.

[00:16:17] But I tried to make sure that page was, you know, full of people who I could thank and acknowledge and show that like, hey, this was, there was. Several dozen people that put work into this that had thoughts and input here. It wasn't just me. Right. Yeah. And that made it, you know, every single book I've done that and every single book has been much better for it.

[00:16:35] Sanjay Parekh: Yeah. You mentioned that there's kind of like side effects of writing these books.

[00:16:41] Robert Carnes: Yes.

[00:16:41] Sanjay Parekh: Talk to us a little bit about what those side effects are. How have they been meaningful? Have they all been good side effects? Have there been bad side effects maybe..

[00:16:49] Robert Carnes: For the, yeah, I can't think of a bad one to this point other than just like the countless hours that I've had to pour into promoting it and talking about the book. I, maybe that's the one thing I'll say is I feel it feels hard to be like a salesman for your book, almost even differently from being a salesman for your business. Like I believe in our business as a marketing agency, I believe in my skills as a copywriter. Like I can sit all day long and say, Hey, if you need my help, I'm here.

[00:17:12] I can offer you my service. It's almost like a different deeply personal thing to say like, please buy my book. Like I believe in this thing, right? I've put so much time and effort into it and it's got my thoughts and my brain, right? For the past couple years, and you should spend $14 on it. Like for some reason there's just like this mental block and I don't think it's just with me. I've talked to several other authors who said like, yeah it's kind of painful. It's a weird process to that makes, even though I do marketing. Full-time.

[00:17:39] Sanjay Parekh: Yeah.

[00:17:39] Robert Carnes: Marketing for my own book is a lot more difficult than I would've ever expected.

[00:17:43] Sanjay Parekh: Yeah.

[00:17:43] Robert Carnes: But when I do it, when I have, when I go on podcasts, when I do guest blog posts and I Right go to bookstores, every time I try to put myself out there and actually talk about the book and get it promoted, like it's not always just book sales. That happen. I've, I mean, I've earned clients for myself, both as a freelancer and for Green Mellon as a marketing agency, have come from promoting the business book that I put out there. We are some of our new clients that come to Green Mellon. We send them a copy of the book to help show and establish our credibility, right, as an agency and for me as a marketing director to say, Hey, like I. I've put thought into this, I have years of experience. Like here's the proof behind it.

[00:18:23] Sanjay Parekh: Right.

[00:18:23] Robert Carnes: So I think there's a lot of those tangential things that you wouldn't necessarily automatically think about.

[00:18:28] Sanjay Parekh: Yeah.

[00:18:28] Robert Carnes: That come with, again, I think a lot of it's connected to credibility.

[00:18:31] Sanjay Parekh: Yeah.

[00:18:31] Robert Carnes: And your legitimacy as an author to say like, Hey, not everybody can do this. Right. But I have done this. I've put the thought and time and effort into doing this thing. Yeah. And you can trust me as a result of that. So I'll, those are the, a lot of those things, it's opened up those doors.

[00:18:43] Sanjay Parekh: Right.

[00:18:44] Robert Carnes: For me to speak at different events and get in front of more clients.

[00:18:46] Sanjay Parekh: That, has there been something that's been surprising to you as a tangential side effect that you didn't expect from the beginning?

[00:18:53] Robert Carnes: I don't know. I think I've had more conversations with people saying, oh yeah, I think I could write a book. Oh yeah. Like I, that I'd want that to meet me one day, like, even if they're not like gonna necessarily buy my book or be a client. Yeah. Like just seeing that kind of part light up in another person, right. And going, oh, like that's a really cool rare thing. Like, I'd like to do that too.

[00:19:12] Sanjay Parekh: Yeah.

[00:19:12] Robert Carnes: And I try to encourage people and try to kind of. I don't know, just personally bring them along and say like, yeah, if you ever want to pick my brain, like this is a much more achievable thing.

[00:19:21] Sanjay Parekh: Yeah.

[00:19:21] Robert Carnes: Than you'd ever imagine. Especially with self-publishing. Don't expect, again, you're gonna sell a hundred thousand copies. Right. But like, if you just want to put the effort in and be able to say that you've written a book and like hold it in your hands. Like you can do it if you really, truly want to and put in the effort behind it. Yeah. So that's, those have been kind of cool conversations when I've had them.

[00:19:37] Sanjay Parekh: Yeah. One of the things you mentioned earlier on was, kind of, you know, previously not being a parent and like the balance and all these kinds of things now having all these side hustles.

[00:19:48] Robert Carnes: Yes.

[00:19:49] Sanjay Parekh: I imagine makes it harder to find the time to do all of the things. So how do you think about that and how do you kind of balance the full-time job and the multiple side hustles and the demands on time with family and friends and all of those things?

[00:20:03] Robert Carnes: That is a question I get often, and that is a question I still don't have a full answer to. Okay. I often wonder myself, I'm like, why? Why am I doing all these things?

[00:20:11] Sanjay Parekh: Right.

[00:20:11] Robert Carnes: And I think it's just partially because I'm. Interested and I'm curious and I like taking on, I like, I enjoy the work that I'm doing now.

[00:20:18] Sanjay Parekh: Yeah.

[00:20:18] Robert Carnes: So I probably stay busier than I need to.

[00:20:22] Sanjay Parekh: Yeah.

[00:20:22] Robert Carnes: And I do always, like, there is a tension between personal and family stuff and the work things.

[00:20:28] And I mean, part of it is just having serious conversations with my wife. Part of it is just having serious conversations with myself and saying, can I take this thing on right now? Can I go to this extra event? Can I say yes to this podcast opportunity? Yeah. And I mean, sometimes I use that as a filter to say like, Hey, thank you so much for the opportunity.

[00:20:44] Let me take a minute to think about that. Let me go talk and have a conversation with my wife and make sure that's okay. And that rather than giving the immediate yes is as often I would like to do. It helps me slow down and take another day or two and take a second to think about it and then be able to say, actually. Thank you so much for thinking of me. I would love to do this opportunity maybe another time, but no, now is not a good time. I have to say no to that.

[00:21:06] Sanjay Parekh: Yeah.

[00:21:07] Robert Carnes: So I mean, no is one of the most powerful things of understanding when you have to turn something down, when you have to turn down a client, fire a client. Yeah. Say no to a volunteer opportunity. because I mean, that's the, I would also love to do more of those. Right. But you just have to Yeah. As you become older, as I'm sure you can attest to.

[00:21:23] Sanjay Parekh: Yeah.

[00:21:24] Robert Carnes: You have to just be able to prioritize and whittle down the list of things that you're willing to say yes to. But also, I mean I, there's a lot of things that I say no to, like watching too much television or not being on social media. Like there, there are other things in my life where I've been happy to say no to so that I can open up opportunities. For some of those other things that I think drives more value. So it's an ever evolving thing. I had to actually like get rid of my freelance side hustle for about two and a half years when my youngest daughter was born.

[00:21:52] Sanjay Parekh: Yeah.

[00:21:53] Robert Carnes: Because I was like, I know this is gonna be tough. I know having a new baby and an older kid, like all those things. But that the start of this year when she got a little bit older, I was like, okay, I can start bringing some of that stuff on.

[00:22:03] It was kind of funny how quickly I was able to turn it off, and then as soon as I like, made myself available for more work it was right there waiting for me. So I think that's been another reminder too, is that like, sometimes I feel this, and I'm sure other people resonate with it as well, is that like, if you say no, then like it's never gonna happen again. Right? Right. This is my one shot.

[00:22:21] Sanjay Parekh: Right.

[00:22:22] Robert Carnes: I have FOMO if I say no to this thing.

[00:22:24] Sanjay Parekh: Right.

[00:22:24] Robert Carnes: But in reality, I think a lot of times if you're kind and open and available and transparent with somebody. The right thing, the right opportunities will come back around to you when you're ready for 'em.

[00:22:34] Sanjay Parekh: Yeah, I hope so. Think that's, I think that's the classic entrepreneur, like kind of fear. Is that Sure. Yeah. That closing off of those opportunities. And so you haven't felt that at all, right? Like at least the things that you've seen?

[00:22:47] Robert Carnes: Sure. I mean, I still feel that, I still feel that, like the tension or the decoration.

[00:22:51] Sanjay Parekh: You feel it, but it hasn't actually happened necessarily.

[00:22:53] Robert Carnes: Correct. Correct. It reassures me, like the universe kind of comes back and I was like no, it's okay. It's gonna be all right. You know, I still feel that tension, it can resonate with anybody who does, but like, I've been lucky enough to be in a position where like the right things have come back around and sometimes, like I had to say no to a client.

[00:23:08] I was like, maybe they'll ask me again and I missed that opportunity. But maybe that wasn't the right one to begin with. Yeah. So I just, you have to be honest with yourself and understand what you can handle, what your family can handle, what your schedule is gonna allow. I've just, yeah I've become a lot. Better about just kind of resolving myself to that and being open to kind of what's available and what's not on my calendar.

[00:23:30] Sanjay Parekh: Yeah. Is there anything that made you nervous about undertaking any of these things, like writing the books or the freelance copywriting, like things that kind of made you take pause?

[00:23:43] Robert Carnes: I think the first thing that jumps out to me is the imposter syndrome.

[00:23:47] Sanjay Parekh: Yeah.

[00:23:48] Robert Carnes: Of I don't really know what I'm doing, do they, are they willing to pay me money to do this thing that I'm really not sure about?

[00:23:54] Sanjay Parekh: Right.

[00:23:55] Robert Carnes: I mean, even some of the administrative things with like, when I send over an invoice to my clients, I'm like, are they gonna, like, is this professional enough for them?

[00:24:02] Are they gonna feel like I've duped them because my, my my invoice doesn't look professional enough? I don't know. Like I, I can get in my own head and I can have that perfectionist mindset sometimes and definitely feel like I am not worthy. But it, that has gotten easier over time. Now that I've done it several times, I've had lots of clients. I have not actually had anybody say any of the things that were going on in my head. Like my perfectionist brain is by far the worst critic, right? Than any client or any book reader or reviewer. Anything that I've ever encountered, like yeah I've realized I'm my own worst critic and almost nothing I fear actually comes pa to pass.

[00:24:39] And so like that's helped to kind of quiet those voices a little bit. But yeah, I mean, they. They still are there. Sometimes if I do like a speaking engagement or if I come on a podcast like this, I'm like, do they really, do I really have something worth sharing?

[00:24:51] Sanjay Parekh: Right.

[00:24:52] Robert Carnes: And so, yeah, that, that's just the reality. And I think all of us to one degree or another, if we're being honest with ourselves, feel some of that.

[00:25:00] Sanjay Parekh: Right.

[00:25:00] Robert Carnes: So that's, yeah, I think that's probably the biggest fear, but it has gotten much easier over time because I've got proof behind it and I can say, no I do have this many years of experience.

[00:25:09] Yeah. And I do have this many customers who haven't complained and have appreciated and benefited from the work we've done together. As long as we can just be honest with one another and transparent. Yeah, and just, I can not try to puff myself up and try to win this client because I'm pretending like I'm the best if I can just say, no this is honestly what I've done and this is what I think I can help you with. Then I don't have to be worried about them feeling like I've duped them or won them over or something like that with false pretenses. So. Yeah that's a another constant kind of thing that I struggle with. Yeah. In the background. I can quiet it more in the background now in my head. Yeah.

[00:25:43] Sanjay Parekh: Is there anything that you do other than that, that really helps you get over that imposter syndrome thing? Like is there, like, obviously like now having the history and. Have done it. That kind of helps quite a bit. Yeah. But was there anything else, like, especially in the early days when you hadn't necessarily done it, you know, how did you get yourself over that?

[00:26:06] Robert Carnes: So I read a book several years ago and actually reread it earlier this year called Soundtracks by John Acuff.

[00:26:12] Sanjay Parekh: Okay.

[00:26:13] Robert Carnes: I'm big fan of his, he's written several books. I think this is one of his best. And it's about those little voices in your head because it's all about how to get over overthinking. And most of that imposter syndrome is just really overthinking. Right. I'm in my head too much. I need to just quiet these voices. But what he talks about, I mean, there, there's a lot more in the book than just this, but is replacing that kind of fear with the truth and finding a little mantra instead of that thing that's running through your head that's causing chaos and causing doubt. To say no. Like this is the thing that I can hold onto and this is a truth that is, I know can be true and real. So replacing what he calls broken soundtracks.

[00:26:45] Sanjay Parekh: Yeah.

[00:26:45] Robert Carnes: With a real soundtrack that helps build you up rather than tear yourself down. So..

[00:26:49] Sanjay Parekh: Yeah.

[00:26:50] Robert Carnes: He's an entrepreneur. He's a guy who I really look up to.

[00:26:53] He's a marketer as well. Like I think very highly of him. But also that book has really helped me kind of process through those things and oh yeah, like I don't have to be so much in my head. I can. I can live more in the real world than in reality, rather than worrying about things too much.

[00:27:07] Sanjay Parekh: Yeah, and I mean, the truth of matter is that a lot of us think that, oh, what are other people going to think about me if I don't succeed at this? And honestly, most people don't think about you at all.

[00:27:19] Robert Carnes: Sad but truth.

[00:27:20] Sanjay Parekh: Yeah. No. Nobody's sitting there thinking, you know, oh, I wonder what Robert's doing. I wonder what Sanjay's doing. Like they just. They have their own busy lives to think about.

[00:27:29] Robert Carnes: Yes. Yes they do.

[00:27:29] Sanjay Parekh: And so nobody's really thinking about us that much, which for the good and the bad, right?

[00:27:34] Robert Carnes: Yes.

[00:27:35] Sanjay Parekh: Right. Because the bad of it is then you have to work so much harder to get your stuff, whatever it is you're doing in front of them.

[00:27:41] Robert Carnes: Right.

[00:27:42] Sanjay Parekh: And get them to care about it.

[00:27:43] Robert Carnes: Right. But you can, you also can't do that if you're tripping over your own feet and you're being your own worst enemy. Get like, sometimes we need to get out of our own way. And then also, like you said, realize that other people have their own stuff going on.

[00:27:52] Sanjay Parekh: Yeah.

[00:27:52] Robert Carnes: And so that's one of the reasons I love that, like approach of just honesty and kindness. Yeah. And if we can just meet people where they're at it, I don't know. It's a very refreshing thing in this world, and far too rare.

[00:28:01] Yeah. So if we can do that, whether it's in business or in just personal life or relationships, whatever, if we can have that kind of approach and attitude. It just helps kinda smooth a lot of things over. Yeah. Is what I've found at least.

[00:28:12] Sanjay Parekh: Yeah. Okay. So last couple questions here. Yes. Let's talk about the book. So you've done your first fiction book.

[00:28:18] Robert Carnes: Yes.

[00:28:20] Sanjay Parekh: What do you think you're gonna keep doing fiction you're gonna do back to nonfiction? How did that go?

[00:28:26] Robert Carnes: I've got ideas for both. That's one of my harder parts is like, I, that would honestly be the thing if I could choose. One thing to do with my time uhhuh is just write books.

[00:28:34] I like the stability of having a full-time job too much to just completely quit that. But yeah, I mean I've got a couple ideas for fiction, other follow up novels. I've got two or three other nonfiction books written. I just have to figure out what to do with them after this point. Like I, because I love writing, because I do this so often, like it is something I'm constantly working on. I do it for the love of all that. So, yeah, I mean, there will be more books by Robert Carnes coming out at some point in time. And I try not to get too far ahead of myself because I'm like, I do need to focus on the one I've got right here, right? Like, that's the one that's in front of me. So. Don't get too geeked out about the next one quite yet.

[00:29:07] Sanjay Parekh: So is there a sequel to the fiction book? Is it gonna be a series or what?

[00:29:12] Robert Carnes: I don't think so. I think I bounce around too many too often and have too many different ideas. Yeah. To dwell in one place too long. I mean, maybe if people demand it too much and there's a market for a sequel, yeah, it could happen. But right now the ideas that I have are on completely different things. Yeah. With different topics.

[00:29:29] Sanjay Parekh: Yeah. So that's an interesting kind of approach because a lot of people will take. One topic can become really good in that one topic. You know, not many of us are Isaac Asimov, who I think he wrote books that were in every part of the Dewey Decibel system except like two. Wow. So he has books in basically every subject during his lifetime. And of course I know him for science fiction. Yes. But he wrote real, you know, like nonfiction books as well. So

[00:29:57] Robert Carnes: I appreciate you comparing me to Isaac Asimov. That's very flat.

[00:30:01] Sanjay Parekh: Great writer there. Yes. And maybe you'll get to that level at some point too, right? Sure. Have books in every part of the Dewey Decimal system. So why do you do, why are you taking that approach instead of. Focusing on one like so many people do.

[00:30:14] Robert Carnes: Sure. I think it's a lot smarter to not do what I'm doing. Like I, I think it's a lot easier to market yourself when you're the guy who does this one thing rather than Yeah. I think it's honestly just my interests are just so broad and varied and I like to read.

[00:30:26] Sanjay Parekh: Right.

[00:30:27] Robert Carnes: A little bit of everything.

[00:30:28] Sanjay Parekh: Yeah.

[00:30:29] Robert Carnes: So that's it's more of a personal vindication than true like. Because I think I can market this really well. It's it is going against the grain in a lot of ways. Yeah. So I'm almost not recommending it to anybody. because I do have to almost rethink like, okay, now I've got a completely different audience.

[00:30:44] Sanjay Parekh: Right.

[00:30:44] Robert Carnes: And I need to talk about how do I build my website so that it promotes all five of these books that are in all different sectors and categories. Right. So. I am working against myself in all way, but I think I'm doing it just because, like this is the book that was in my head and that I just had to, yeah, I had to write and get out there. But again, it's somebody on it.

[00:31:01] Sanjay Parekh: Yeah. It's not like you can remarket to that same group, right? Like the nonfiction book buyer may. Not that Venn diagram is maybe not as much overlap to the fiction book, correct?

[00:31:11] Robert Carnes: Correct. Yeah. Publishers would recommend, yeah, like stay in this world. Yeah. Build a whole universe around this. Stay in one kinda niche place. because yeah, then you build up a cult following. It's a lot harder to do that when you've written like a Christian book and then a business book and then a young adult fiction and then like I, yeah, I am, I'm maybe doing myself a little disservice, but. It's okay. I'm okay to live with it because I'm building a lot of different audiences who have a lot of different varied tastes and interests.

[00:31:35] Sanjay Parekh: Yeah. And you're doing it because it's the thing that you're interested in doing Yes. Versus the thing that you're gonna want to market.

[00:31:40] Robert Carnes: Correct? Yeah. Correct. I'm not chasing the dollar, but that's always nice. So I still want to sell copies of each of my books.

[00:31:46] Sanjay Parekh: Right.

[00:31:46] Robert Carnes: Hopefully.

[00:31:47] Sanjay Parekh: Well listen, Robert, this has been fascinating and interesting. If our listeners or watchers. want to find out more about you and connect with you, how can they do that?

[00:31:56] Robert Carnes: Yeah, so Robertcarnes.org is my website. I put all the things on there, all the links to my books and all that kind of stuff. I mean, you can find all my books on Amazon as well, or wherever you find books. You can put it in my name and it's got all the different variations of books connected. And then @jamrobcar is where you can find me on all the social media channels, and those are also linked to my website as well.

[00:32:20] Sanjay Parekh: Awesome.

[00:32:20] Robert Carnes: Yeah.

[00:32:21] Sanjay Parekh: Thanks so much for being on today.

[00:32:22] Robert Carnes: Of course. Thanks, Sanjay.

[00:32:27] Sanjay Parekh: Thanks for listening to this week's episode of the Side Hustle to Small Business podcast, powered by Hiscox. To learn more about how Hiscox can help protect your small business through intelligent insurance solutions, visit Hiscox.com. And to hear more Side Hustle to Small Business stories, or share your own story, please visit Hiscox.com/side-hustle-to-small-business. I'm your host, Sanjay Parekh. You can find out more about me at my website, SanjayParekh.com.