Ebony Peay Ramirez, Build Her World

[00:00:55] Sanjay Parekh: Today's guest is Ebony Peay Ramirez, a DEI consultant and founder of Build Her World, an app designed to help girls aged 9 to 13 build their businesses. She joins us today from Seattle, Washington. Ebony, welcome to the show. 

[00:01:11] Ebony Peay Ramirez: Thank you so much for having me, Sanjay. Glad to be here.

[00:01:14] Sanjay Parekh: So, I'm excited to have you because talking to somebody else that's helping founders, even though they're young founders, start their companies is always exciting to me. But before we get into that, give us a little bit about your background and what got you to where you are today. 

[00:01:27] Ebony Peay Ramirez: Okay. You said it. I'm born in Seattle, Washington. I'm born and raised here. So, I'm Pacific Northwest diehard fan. Seahawks, all of it. I went to the University of Washington, grew up in a family of five and we were very, I would say, entrepreneurial inquisitive or entrepreneurial adjacent. Parents were always asking us those questions: “What do we want to be? What do we want to do? What do we want to try?” And so, we always have their support. So, I went to University of Washington and actually studied dance and fell in love with performance. 

I went to New York upon graduation and went to Alvin Ailey's to study by an extension program and started to choreograph as well as perform. So, my favorites are hip hop and modern. Or some kind of fusion of the two and I did it for about six years. And obviously while you're dancing, we didn't have TikTok at the time or YouTube. So, we couldn't make money immediately by sponsorship. You needed a place to like cushion that bank account. I ended up going to executive administrative route, which in New York is a career all in itself and pays extremely well. And so, I was able to do that to support myself as well as audition and take on side jobs for dancing. 

I ended up at Goldman Sachs, which was probably not good for my artistic career. Because I soon learned how much money I was missing out on. And so, by that I learned a lot about the stock market, and it happened to coincide with the 2008 crash. And so, I ended up moving from there. But taking all of this kind of like newfound knowledge of money as well as insight on, “Wow, maybe I should actually go make more money, instead of dancing.” 

So, I hung up my dancing dreams at that point ended up through a couple of different roles, Bloomberg, and then I landed at a startup. And by that time in my career, I thought, I think I want to do entrepreneurship. I worked directly with the founder of the company at Conductor, and I just loved being in that seat. Every day is a new day. And I wanted to either become a venture capitalist or launch my own company, but I wanted to get some Silicon Valley experience. So, I popped over to Silicon Valley, and I was just so lucky enough to get hired by the team at Oculus. And at that time, it was their EA, but I was very focused on DEI, well, from birth, pretty much. And so, I grabbed all the opportunities and then transitioned into a PM role there. And loved it for four years popped into after that, taking a little break, raised a venture capital fund and then, because I wanted to see what that would feel out, test out my fundraising skills. Did not too bad and then I decided that Build Her World was probably something that needed to exist, and so I started to work on that.

[00:04:11] Sanjay Parekh: Just for listeners to make sure they know DEI, diversity, equity, inclusion, and PM role, you said a product manager, right? That's what you wanted. 

[00:04:21] Ebony Peay Ramirez: You're right. PM could be product manager. I was a program manager. Just to be clear. 

[00:04:25] Sanjay Parekh: Okay. Yeah. See? Yeah. Good thing I clarified. Awesome. So, was this the first time? So, Build Her World. Is this the first time you've started your own company? Or, you said you were entrepreneurial adjacent, which I love that word, when you were younger, were you doing some hustling things when you were young and what was the first thing?

[00:04:44] Ebony Peay Ramirez: Yes. But much more socially. So, like the money part didn't come until later. So, I by the time that I was, oh gosh, 13, I was already a pretty good dancer. And so, a lot of people would come to me and ask me to perform. So, I started to perform, started my own dance group in junior high. And then started another one in high school. In high school is when I started to get paid. 

And then also at the University of Washington, I started the dance group there and we obviously started to get paid there too. So, I would say from the dance perspective, I was very much getting paid. Again, not as lucrative as the TikTokers but enough to keep me energized and passionate and like, okay, I can probably fuel this career for a little bit. 

[00:05:27] Sanjay Parekh: Yeah, I think your story there shows timing is everything when it comes down to it, like just a few years later and TikTok you would be the new Charli D'Amelio or something like that. Okay. When you decided to go in and explain to us what Build Her World is actually before I ask you that question.

[00:05:49] Ebony Peay Ramirez: So, it's essentially a platform for girls to learn what entrepreneurship is. Entrepreneur is not necessarily a word that at that age and at that group, actually adapt or adopt quite quickly. So, I changed it to builder because that's a term that really encompasses the crafting, the building, being creative. Right around 10 to 12 or 10 to 13, Generation Alpha girls; that's what we're focusing on. Those are the ages in which parents finally get it that you are consistently learning a new tool or a new craft, and it's really the age where you start to get really good at building your skillset in a particular craft. And it felt it was really important to grab at that age. 

It also happens to be the age of right before you start all of that insecurity that starts to mount up. Right? And 14, 15, 16, you start to question yourself and doubt yourself. So, it was really important for me to get in at that intersection to start building those skills. And really, it's more muscle building, in my opinion, than anything else. If a girl actually builds a company out of it, that's creme de la creme. That's me hitting it out of the park. But I would say more importantly it's about inclusive collaboration. It's about understanding that a setback is just you got to change your mindset and keep going after the skill. And then most importantly is the fundamental like entrepreneurship skill sets that a lot of boys get. But a lot of girls don't get. 

[00:07:12] Sanjay Parekh: Yeah. Yeah. I love that and it's funny you mentioned that nervousness or self-doubt. We hear that so many times with our guests on this podcast where I ask the question of like what you know, “What would you do differently?” or something like that. And a lot of it is that self-doubt of, I don't know all the things that I need to know. And honestly, most of us that start companies, we don't know all the things and you're building the bicycle as you're pedaling down the street. For almost everybody, even the people that you see that are successful. They've done the exact same thing. So, let me ask you this, then. When you were starting this, was there something that made you nervous about doing this and how did you overcome that for yourself? 

[00:08:00] Ebony Peay Ramirez: Yeah, I would say there's two main things. If you look at the app, it's a very diverse character wrap, meaning the branding of it is essentially through six different characters of girls, all of various backgrounds. From a Black American, Asian American, Southeast Asian American, Latin American, I have everything to be representative. And I'm probably missing some just because this world's so beautifully diverse, but it was really important to me to create characters that girls would be able to connect with to tell the story and guide them along their journey. And I am not an illustrator, so I had to figure out how to create these cartoon characters. And again, this was before any kind of AI cartoon making, or a little bit before maybe the gig economy where you could just hire anybody. So, I had to figure out how to do that. I, of course, did not draw them, which I think that's why they are beautiful, because I was able to get my hands on some extremely brilliant illustrators. And trying to figure out and identify that was the first one that I had to really get over and not get intimidated about. 

And then the second piece is, I am not, I can do a little bit of Unity as a coder and a little bit of HTML or CSS, but let's be real. Coding has gone way past that now, and it's gotten way more sophisticated, and I was not about to take a class and then crash course this thing, so I had to figure out how to hire a development team and work closely with them, adopt their language. And really tried to come up to speed so that we can have really great communication and work together to build the app. I have, I will say that I had a benefit of being in tech for a while, so I had a little bit of introduction to a lot of those terms and processes, but it was a whole different thing doing it on my own and, of course, on my own budget. So, those are the two things I had to get over. 

[00:09:47] Sanjay Parekh: Yeah. I pretend to code still to this day. I wasn't a good coder 20 years ago and now it's like, I'm probably really, really not good at this point. But we're going to avoid that subject for now. 

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[00:10:22] Sanjay Parekh: Okay. So, when you decided, what was it that made you take that leap? You were doing a venture fund, doing all these things. What made you decide, hey, I want to go all in on this one thing. Was there an event? Was there like some aha moment that caused you to think, I got to do this all in?

[00:10:42] Ebony Peay Ramirez: I would say that when I was in venture. It was just as hard being in venture as a woman in tech, specifically a woman of color in tech, as it was in being in a tech company. And so, I would talk to a lot of the women and a lot of them were having fun, but some of them weren't. And so, I don't know, something went off in me, a little bit of, “Am I having fun right now?” I really do believe that you should really love what you do. You just get that much more out of it. And I would work with the founders, and I realized that I had just a very good way of working with founders. And I was like, this is amazing. I feel like I'm getting fed just as much as I get the feedback that they're feeling like I'm adding value to them. And so, that probably was it for me when I said, I need to go in all on this. 

And then I would say the second piece of that is, sometimes frustration fuels, right? And so, it motivates. And so, I got very frustrated not seeing enough younger girls having the opportunities. If you take a 13-year-old kid from Silicon Valley, that's the boy, oftentimes you're going to find that kid has either launched something, his mother or father has launched something, they're about to launch, and they have the terminology, the vocabulary, and I was frustrated by that. But if you took a girl, not necessarily you were going to get that. Not that they couldn't do it, because they're obviously brilliant, but it wasn't any targeted or geared focus to that. And so, that really, that made me mad. So, I was like, it's time. It's just time. And I think I waited a couple years thinking another group would do it. And I still see that it's not done. And I was like, yeah, it's time. Let's just go. 

[00:12:18] Sanjay Parekh: Yeah. Yeah, that's funny. I do the same thing. I've got a long list of ideas. And I'm very happy when other people do them because that's one less thing that I have to do. Alright. Because the list is already long. I'm not going to get them all done anyways. But sometimes people just don't do some of these. What is wrong with you people? Okay, fine. I'll do it. And it's nice to hear that you're the same way. Okay. So, the company, is it just you? Is it more people? How big is the company right now? 

[00:12:48] Ebony Peay Ramirez: So, I would say from a technical standpoint, the company’s like 3. But 1099 or contractors. I haven't hired any full time yet. I'm on track to do that probably in about another year. Probably in a year by myself and with a couple of contractors, but I'll probably onboard maybe one or two contractors. As we've just hit one of our major clients, we'll need a little bit more support in the kind of organization of stuff. I think that we'll be growing a little bit more this year, faster than I anticipated. 

[00:13:19] Sanjay Parekh: Yeah, so you got a couple of people and then basically flex up with a development team and all of these ad hoc illustrators and folks like that. Yeah, that's awesome. Okay let's switch gears a little bit. Even though you're helping girls with their businesses, running your own business is stressful. And so, how do you manage the stress of owning a business and everything else that happens in life? How do you balance these things for yourself? 

[00:13:50] Ebony Peay Ramirez: Gosh, what a great question that one is. I would say, and do I have a one-point answer? There's not just one answer. It's a great question. Balance is not quite the word that I embrace. Let's start there. I think that you always-

[00:14:09] Sanjay Parekh: Is it juggling? 

[00:14:11] Ebony Peay Ramirez: It is juggling. Yeah. Yeah. It's not a balance. It's not because some things require your attention at different times. And so, I think that when I'm able to shortchange a little bit on the DEI consulting, I can beef up more of the focus on the Build Her World. And then knowing when it's the right time to beef up and then when it's okay to get back to what's truly paying my mortgage and all my other bills, right? So, also, I would say that I happen to have a pretty good support team. Meaning I've built some amazing relationships and network with people that have been founders that I can go to that keep the stress down. Other entrepreneurs and other ways like real estate that I've built relationships with that can always remind me like, “Hey, what's the focus point here?” I have an incredibly amazing husband who's completely supportive 100%. Sister, family. They're just all very supportive. They know when I need a moment to like pause and I'm not like overly burdened with things, say for instance, like if we're going to have a big cookout, don't expect me to cook something. Maybe I'll supply the the meat or the sides. So, it's really just like adjusting within every day, but knowing what's the most important to spend your time on. That's how I balance. 

[00:15:30] Sanjay Parekh: So, I'm not sure I realized this until now when you said this, but you're balancing between being a DEI consultant as well as Build Her World. What's your split between these two in terms of time? 

[00:15:41] Ebony Peay Ramirez: So, I would say in the beginning of last year, it was more of like an 80/20. And I should say that in the DEI space, I'm also a coach for two other accelerators. So, I have my hands in a lot of things, but that also keeps me really sharp to be able to bring those learnings to my business for Build Her World. So, I would say now the split is probably about a 60/40; 60 on Build Her World and 40 on the DEI. 

[00:16:05] Sanjay Parekh: Okay. Okay. And so, your plan eventually is to go 100 percent on Build Her World. 

[00:16:12] Ebony Peay Ramirez: Oh yeah, 100%.

[00:16:14] Sanjay Parekh: So, that's great. So, then let's talk about then the boundaries because the consulting side is presumably the thing that pays the bills right now. How do you manage these things and make sure that you've got those guide rails and that you're able to spend the time on Build Her World. Because that's where your passion is and that's where you're hopefully future income and all that comes from, but right now the moneymaker is the other thing, right? How do you set the boundaries between these two and then more broadly; how do you set the boundaries between business and personal life? Because you're doing two things. You've got a side hustle and a full timer. Maybe it's two side hustles. I don't know how you consider it. You're just hustling a lot. How do you make sure this doesn't eat up 24/7, every day, every week, all the time? 

[00:17:04] Ebony Peay Ramirez: Oh man, can I say that it doesn't eat up? It eats up at least one weekend a month for sure. But I'm working on it every day. I would say that time blocking is probably the best boundary that I put in place. And I'm pretty efficient now with my DEI practice. It's something that I've been doing for 10 years officially, but like I've been doing DEI since high school and college. At the University of Washington, I was on their diversity advisory board. I've been doing it for a while, volunteering at various places as soon as I went to New York. So, I live in an ecosystem of the DEI so for me, it's actually not quite hard. 

That said, obviously there's time that's required to my clients. So, I would say it's time blocking is probably the most to constantly checking in on my clients, making sure they feel that they've been, they're getting the value that I've committed to. And if there's an issue, which luckily for me, thank the Lord, it hasn't been an issue, then I'm able to put a couple hours into Build Her World. And then I would say constant communication, with the family, if I need a late night or an early morning, communicating that, “Hey, I'm not going to be available” as soon as possible. So, scheduling, I'm a pretty good scheduler, as I said before, I had experience as an EA, so I know how to schedule pretty well. So, that's what I would say. Also, I would say as far as a boundary goes, I don't subscribe to like, hustle is definitely like part of it. There's no way you can't do some of it, but I don't subscribe to like overly hustling. If something feels like it's getting to a place like good, great — perfection is not a place I ever live in. And good and great is what I go back into. You asked about boundaries so I think this is important to say. I don't ever go to perfectionism. And maybe somebody will get hired later in the brand and they're like, “Oh, this needs to be a little bit more perfect.” Maybe I'll let them handle the perfectionism. But I think that good and great will get it there. Almost 98 percent of the time. And so, that's the boundary that I do put for myself. It keeps me from being overly stressed. 

[00:19:16] Sanjay Parekh: Yeah. That's an interesting insight because I tend to be more on the perfection side sometimes. And I'm very detail oriented. Like I like things to be right. And I'm a strong believer in, when you're doing things, even the things that people don't see, they should be right as well. Because that one person that does see it will then appreciate all the effort in the whole thing. But I do recognize that sometimes that's not helpful in trying to accomplish things. So, that is definitely a balance for me. 

You mentioned time blocking. Is there something that you do in terms of a tool? Or is it just using the calendar and just using it effectively, or is there something that you do to make that effective for yourself? 

[00:20:03] Ebony Peay Ramirez: No, it's very simple. It's color coding, calendar, and just using the calendar very effectively. And really putting in breaks for myself, say for instance, if I looked at my calendar, every minute of the day is probably pretty organized. Like the lunch is put in, the break to take a walk is put in. Those are the kind of things that I live and die by. I also have, I would say another one that I do. I used to take a lot of kind of interruptive calls or emails. I don't do that anymore and that has probably increased my efficiency quite a bit. Really thinking about why I'm using my time and what it's designated for and staying very close to that is probably one of the most important things that I've learned as far as allowing kind of those interruptive, “Oh, let me get back to this person. This person just pinged me.” I really hold truth to my calendar in that sense. 

[00:20:49] Sanjay Parekh: Yeah, and that's a hard thing because it's only gotten worse over time. Cell phones and then we have email and now you have things like Slack and Discord and like all of these things where it's constant notification that it's you feel like you're on somebody else's time and not your own. So that's an interesting insight. In your kind of your daily and weekly calendar you mentioned lunch and going out taking walks. What else is like constant that is like pre-planned in there that doesn’t vary?

[00:21:18] Ebony Peay Ramirez: Well, I was a dancer, so obviously a dance session is happening every day. Just so you know, every day it's happening. That's a requirement for me. It's the way that I express and get it all out. So, that's happening. Easier to do now that I'm working from home versus when I was in office obviously.

[00:21:36] Sanjay Parekh: I'm just having an image of you, Ebony, at Goldman Sachs dancing in the office and they're all like, why is she doing that?

00:21:47] Ebony Peay Ramirez: What is she doing exactly? 

[00:21:48] Sanjay Parekh: Is she having, did something good happen we don't know about? What is happening? 

[00:21:52] Ebony Peay Ramirez: Yeah, at Goldman, not so much. Maybe at another company, the startups, they'll join in. But yeah, Goldman, not so much, but it happened. 

[00:22:02] Sanjay Parekh: So, a dance session every day. That's a good lesson for everybody. Like whatever your hobby is, maybe schedule it in every day. 

[00:22:10] Ebony Peay Ramirez: You got to keep it close. I do a little photography. So, oftentimes on a walk, I would take the 20-minute walk and just take pictures as well. And I feel like that keeps me creatively motivated as well. It also keeps me very humble, right? Because I'm not great at it. So, it keeps my humility intact. Is like, yeah, you got some learning to do. So, it reminds me of that. 

[00:22:32] Sanjay Parekh: What's your camera of choice? Are you just using your cell phone or is it an actual camera? 

[00:22:36] Ebony Peay Ramirez: It's an actual camera. It's a Leica SL. 

[00:22:44] Sanjay Parekh: Okay, that’s a nice camera. We're a Canon family ourselves.

[00:22:47] Ebony Peay Ramirez: I started with Canon. Yeah, I started with Canon. Canon is a great brand. I love it. 

[00:22:51] Sanjay Parekh: Yeah, Leica makes some real, and some of their newer cameras are really beautiful. 

[00:22:57] Ebony Peay Ramirez: Oh, my goodness, I have some on my list. 

[00:22:59] Sanjay Parekh: Not to mention performance, but they also look good too, which, it's funny how much everything has changed in terms of how we view products. If you think back 20 years ago, it just had to work. And now it also has to look good. Because if something that works better than and doesn't look as good, i's just not going to sell. And I think I'm happy about that being the place that we're in personally. 

[00:23:23] Ebony Peay Ramirez: I am as well. I have a high aesthetic for things. So yeah, I would agree with that. I love, matter of fact, probably like a, it's a beautiful product, period, like as it, it produces this beautiful picture, but it's one of the most beautiful, like pieces of technology made into cameras. So, I'm very attracted to that, so yeah, I’m the same way.

[00:23:43] Sanjay Parekh: Yeah. Okay. Let's switch gears a little bit and think about going back in time. You've had a long career spanning back to New York and being an EA and all these things. If you could go back in time and do something differently, what is that thing that you do differently and why?

[00:24:01] Ebony Peay Ramirez: Oh my gosh. Oh, that's, I think that's an easy one for me. I would probably have gone into science research. And when the COVID situation happened, that might have been the moment where I was like, shoot, did I miss my calling? To go and study sciences particularly in, epidemiology or oncology, those are the two that I would probably would have had the calling for. I tried to go that direction in the beginning, but I was too much of a talker, so it did not work out for me. I did well with the grades, but I just talked a little too much. So, I think that I wouldn't have focused for long hours. I worked in labs. They were like, get this girl out of here. They just, they were not, yeah, it wasn't good, that's about what I probably would have done, and maybe a different kind of impact to society that I think I would have wanted to aspire to. 

[00:24:58] Sanjay Parekh: Yeah. I can see that as a necessary skill for somebody who's working in a lab. My dad was actually a microbiologist for many years. He worked for the CDC and yeah, he had his lab by himself, so himself, in his lab, doing his work, nobody to bother him. That's how he liked it. I think that might be a common trait with people that are doing research like that. 

[00:25:23] Ebony Peay Ramirez: You need to focus. 

[00:25:24] Sanjay Parekh: Yeah, you need to focus, and I think you and I are probably the same where we need the people as well. That's not, that doesn't really mix with the research. Okay. Thinking about all the things that you've done; you’re doing side hustles now. You're working with the girls, doing all these things. If you're talking to somebody who is thinking about. taking that leap and launching a side hustle or taking their side hustle and making it a full time business, what kind of advice would you give to them? 

[00:25:50] Ebony Peay Ramirez: Oh my gosh. I don't know if you're going to like it. So, I'm going to say there's two pieces of advice; one, the first piece of advice would be a question. Do you see what the current offer is? The current offer is long hours, unappreciative, you not getting the value that you could ever make on your own, and micromanaging. That offer is not really great. It's great to learn for a couple of years, or a decade and shout out to everyone, working hard with that because, we're all trying to support our families and ourselves and how we need to do that is so important and valued. But I would say that's the first part of it is that the current offer is not that great. 

The second thing is the reward that you get for walking into your passion and if you're able to make money with it, the value that you feel at night won't feel as much exhaustion or maybe a little exhaustion, but it'll be a nice kind of breeze of exhaustion. I think that you emphatically will be much more successful in your life if you're able to align with something of your passion. So, that's the first thing that I would say. Two, I would say or three, the third piece of advice is we all make mistakes and just assume you're going to make tons. And so, the faster that you accept that, is the quicker that you'll be able to not only get past those mistakes but learn from them as well. And then be better towards your end goal. 

[00:27:20] Sanjay Parekh: Yeah, I think that advice is actually spot on. Entrepreneurs, people doing entrepreneurship for the money are not necessarily always successful. If you're doing it to make a difference in the world, make a dent in the world, I think there's much more chance that you're going to be happy and that you're going to be successful. And hopefully that means it comes into some financial rewards to you because of that. So, my next question for you I've got two questions actually left for you. One, we talked a little bit about technology around time blocking, things like that. Is there any other kind of technology or apps or systems that you use to keep you going, keep your day sane? All these things. You've learned a lot as somebody who's basically managing and helping manage these large organizations, what do you use to keep the train running on the tracks?

[00:28:12] Ebony Peay Ramirez: Oh, I wish I don't think that I use anything particularly well, but I will, I guess I'll share just a little bit of the systems. But probably what everybody else uses. Slack, I think it's fantastic. I really do. I think WhatsApp is fantastic from an international standpoint. I love most of, this is not going to be a shocker since I worked with Apple, but I'm an Apple head. I just am. I love, I think that the way that they make the product so beautiful and that I've had kind of an intimate relationship with those that did design the works, they put such intention into it, and you feel it when you work with them. Don't get me wrong, I know there's, not everything's perfect and we can go, we can have a discussion on that, I thought I was talking to an Android, person, but I think, Apple products, I love Google products. I think Google does a fantastic job of their ecosystem and I think that's about it for me. I don't think there's anything else. 

I'm starting now to probably adopt a little bit more ChatGPT. But slowly, as a DEI professional, you're probably not surprised to hear that. For those that are listening, there's this conversation where, “How much inclusive minded is it? And, what's the harm that it's doing?” So, I pause. Don't get me wrong, I'm extremely excited because that is the future where we're going to be going. But we've got to be cautious. So, I'm just starting now to play with that to see how we can like, fast track, maybe some of my systems or processes.

[00:29:41] Sanjay Parekh: That's great. Okay. Last question for you, for our listeners. You're working exclusively in helping girls become entrepreneurs and founders. Is there anything that you think all the other founders and listeners of this podcast should be doing to help create that next generation of entrepreneurs in society?

[00:30:06] Ebony Peay Ramirez: I do. I would say, this is going to be spot on to my own personal brand, inclusion. We're missing out on a lot of genius because we're not being inclusive enough. So, my number one to everyone that they could be doing more of is to think who is missing from the table and who you're not making better bridges to, so that your product and what you're trying to build is accessible to everyone. And I know that I should probably put some context around what everyone means. Because I know every founder maybe have a target group that they're focused on. But really getting to the underbelly of like “How much more inclusive can you be, to your product or your service.” So, I think that's what all the founders I would challenge them with. 

[00:30:47] Sanjay Parekh: I love that. I love that. Ebony, this has been fantastic. How can our listeners find and connect with you online?

[00:30:54] Ebony Peay Ramirez: Oh, absolutely. Please jump to www.BuildHerWorld.com, That would be wonderful. You can find me also on Instagram as well. And Twitter's coming soon. So, those are the three places that I would say that you can find me. Also, you can email me at [email protected] as well. And I'd be happy to answer any questions and just share more about what I'm working on. 

[00:31:19] Sanjay Parekh: Awesome. Thanks so much for coming on the show today.

[00:31:21] Ebony Peay Ramirez: My pleasure. Thank you so much for being such a gracious host.

[00:31:27] Sanjay Parekh: Thanks for listening to this week's episode of the Side Hustle to Small Business Podcast powered by Hiscox. To learn more about how Hiscox can help protect your small business through intelligent insurance solutions, visit Hiscox.com. And if you have a story you want to hear on this podcast, please visit Hiscox.com/shareyourstory. I'm your host, Sanjay Parekh. You can find out more about me at my website, SanjayParekh.com.